Communism; why doesn't it work?

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Jean-Louise
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Re: Communism; why doesn't it work?

Postby Jean-Louise » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:46 pm

suzzie76 wrote:Margaret Thatcher said it best, the problem with socialism/communism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money. In every country in the world that was once and still ruled under this ideology this has been proven to be true. Nearly all socialist/communist countries had financial collapse as the pre-cursor to their conversion to democracy. Putin carries on about the grand old days of USSR, but in the 90's it was the country's that they had nuclear weapons pointed at that were basically feeding them. His stupidity continues by aligning himself with some of the least industrialized countries in Asia, hence his need for Ukraine.

Nth Korea hasn't been communist country in decades and no longer refers to this. Its a hereditary dictatorship. If the world would stop pandering to this basket case, it would implode and Kim's head would be on a stick, but no we give the country aid via the govt so it makes him look good amongst the eyes of his people. The country is now so backward that Sth Korea quietly has little interest in unification. They saw what happened to Germany and Eastern Germany wasn't anywhere near as bad as Nth Korea.

Cuba's problem wasn't the US blockade, there are over 200 sovereign countries in the world, only USA blockaded it. The issue for them is being so close to the USA they missed out on billions of income from tourism. Castro did well in health and education, but only while he was propped up by the USSR. As soon as that stopped so did his welfare programs and they progressively feel away. He also generated income from providing health care to South America, so again relied on income from non socialist countries.

Democracy has its issues, hence why a more social form of democracy seems to be the best overall and this includes countries that provide reasonable safety net health care and equal govt education standards that are not based on local incomes. But there are limits to both for which Greece and other EU countries have learnt the hard less. Cannot spend more than you earn.


The trouble with a free market economy is unbridled greed.
Some people are not happy to make a reasonable profit. Some people are driven by never being satisfied with a reasonable profit.
Health care costs spiral because drug companies want to make unreasonable profits.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
You can’t have life, if you cannot afford the cost of drugs needed to sustain life.
Any form of government can work, if it is not perverted by those who want more than their fair share.

Sleepy93
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Re: Communism; why doesn't it work?

Postby Sleepy93 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:27 pm

Socialism has worked. Most people mistake communism for socialism, communism is something that marx said would happen at some point in history regardless, socialism is a means of transitioning into communism. There have been numerous socialist societies that worked (until they were destroyed by capitalist countries) such as Burkina Faso under Thomas Sankara, Rojava which is still extant, the Paris Commune and so on.

DavyJ
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Re: Communism; why doesn't it work?

Postby DavyJ » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:42 am

Sleepy93 wrote:Socialism has worked. Most people mistake communism for socialism, communism is something that marx said would happen at some point in history regardless, socialism is a means of transitioning into communism. There have been numerous socialist societies that worked (until they were destroyed by capitalist countries) such as Burkina Faso under Thomas Sankara, Rojava which is still extant, the Paris Commune and so on.

What exactly is your definition of "worked"??? There have been no socialist countries that have worked by any objective definition, except for very short periods of time or under very specific circumstances. Last time I checked, no one was ever moving to Burkino Faso, Rojava, or any of these places. One of the few places where people are desperately trying to get into (or remain, if they got in illegally a while back) is the USA. Socialism all sounds very nice on paper, but the big problem is simple human nature. You can use any derogatory term you want (such as "greed", one of the more misunderstood words in our language), but the fact is that if you don't have a system that rewards winners, we will all end up losers. Since someone mentioned drug companies, consider the alternative of not having any of these drugs? Obviously its a workable alternative, as humanity existed for many millenia without any of of them, but would anyone really prefer to go back to having a life expectancy of only 30 or 40 years (unless you were part of the super-elite; then you might live to 50 or 60)?

Sleepy93
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Re: Communism; why doesn't it work?

Postby Sleepy93 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:27 am

DavyJ wrote:
Sleepy93 wrote:Socialism has worked. Most people mistake communism for socialism, communism is something that marx said would happen at some point in history regardless, socialism is a means of transitioning into communism. There have been numerous socialist societies that worked (until they were destroyed by capitalist countries) such as Burkina Faso under Thomas Sankara, Rojava which is still extant, the Paris Commune and so on.

What exactly is your definition of "worked"??? There have been no socialist countries that have worked by any objective definition, except for very short periods of time or under very specific circumstances. Last time I checked, no one was ever moving to Burkino Faso, Rojava, or any of these places. One of the few places where people are desperately trying to get into (or remain, if they got in illegally a while back) is the USA. Socialism all sounds very nice on paper, but the big problem is simple human nature. You can use any derogatory term you want (such as "greed", one of the more misunderstood words in our language), but the fact is that if you don't have a system that rewards winners, we will all end up losers. Since someone mentioned drug companies, consider the alternative of not having any of these drugs? Obviously its a workable alternative, as humanity existed for many millenia without any of of them, but would anyone really prefer to go back to having a life expectancy of only 30 or 40 years (unless you were part of the super-elite; then you might live to 50 or 60)?


Well what's yours? I've noticed capitalists always use this term "worked". Well, what do you mean worked? I mean "functioned and could have carried on functioning".

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emilycurious
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Re: Communism; why doesn't it work?

Postby emilycurious » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:35 pm

As soon as you have two cultures you can never have a perfect system, whichever one you try to follow, because humans are pre-wired to be xenophobic and egotistical - it's a survival strategy.
The world is in the situation it is in today because everyone thinks they deserve (or at least wants), either individually or collectively, more of the pie than anyone else, and there are those who take more than their fair share - e.g. The West.
The closest we got was before there was farming.
And there may have been some isolated "systems" that worked for "hidden" tribes of people in remote areas of the world, but society is like quantum mechanics, as soon as you try to measure it, you change the outcome.
Barring Armageddon, we can't get there from here - we've crossed the Rubicon, we've jumped the shark. We're fuçked.
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." Attributed to Margaret Atwood.

suzzie76
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Re: Communism; why doesn't it work?

Postby suzzie76 » Fri May 04, 2018 3:37 am

Socialism doesn't work because it relies on the state to provide and improve people's lives. Thus the state must be in this never ending circle of propaganda to sell to its citizens that they are indeed improving when its likely they are not. To contain discontent you then need secret police and nightly door knocks. etc etc etc. Historically this forced socialistic govt in a downward spiral of debt to maintain standards when the economy went down or fund wars as a diversion of blame. This culture also stems innovation as individuals don't see benefit for them to try. The Soviet union collapsed because it was bankrupt and people knew there was a better life options. Socialism also relies on the fact that the govt always knows what best for its people, which is usually wrong.

In a free market economy, people know largely that their standard of living is mostly driven by them regardless of the state of the economy. Work hard in any economy and you will more likely than not have a better standard of living than others not working. ie you can see a direct link of your efforts. Hence free market economy's tend to have innovation and development. Having said that there are limits and private sector especially the large corporate private sector must be controlled a peoples humanity protected. ie welfare, health care, basic rights at work etc to prevent the country falling back into a sort of feudal economy.

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emilycurious
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Re: Communism; why doesn't it work?

Postby emilycurious » Fri May 04, 2018 2:21 pm

suzzie76 wrote:Socialism doesn't work because it relies on the state to provide and improve people's lives....The Soviet union collapsed because....Socialism also relies on the fact that the govt always knows what best for its people

Nope, that's not socialism, that's soviet communism, which is not even communism.
Try this: Socialism in a Nutshell
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." Attributed to Margaret Atwood.

suzzie76
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Re: Communism; why doesn't it work?

Postby suzzie76 » Wed May 30, 2018 5:49 pm

emilycurious wrote:
suzzie76 wrote:Socialism doesn't work because it relies on the state to provide and improve people's lives....The Soviet union collapsed because....Socialism also relies on the fact that the govt always knows what best for its people

Nope, that's not socialism, that's soviet communism, which is not even communism.
Try this: Socialism in a Nutshell



Agree
Which is a probably good justification that despite multiple attempts at a true socislist state last century it simply doesn't work.


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